Interview with Kacem Zoughari

Written by Nevin Z. Broz

GN: Can you please tell us about your
previous martial arts training before
Bujinkan?

Kacem: I did a little bit of full contact. In
France what we call full contact is something
like boxing with the legs. It's not like the French
martial art Savate. I also studied one year of
Karate when I was about 12 years old. I don't
really have much martial arts experience like
many others like to claim. Many individuals
say," I have a black belt in this or I have a black
belt in that", I don't have anything like that at all.
I grew up in a suburb of Paris where it was a
little bit dangerous. Most of the people in this
area use drugs and sell drugs. Being the elder of
five brothers I had to protect them from those
types of people. By living in this situation one
learns to develop certain survival skills. Skills
such as lying to people, making friends with big
strong guys. Things such as this, step by step
made me turn towards the ninjutsu art. I was
very young and was influenced because of the
ninja movies and things as such.

When I began studying ninjutsu, I started by
trying to learn all nine schools. After awhile I
started to learn the more popular styles of martial
arts such as Karate, Judo, Kendo, and Aikido. I
always thought of a ninja historically as being a
spy, someone who had to know everything.
Some people say, "we don't have time to study
all ofthis...life is too short." Well, I'm not
listening to those people.

Ninja means, "Kanja no mono", which translates
as, "the man in between, the man who knows
what is between people, the man who knows the
nature of the information and knows how to
catch it". You need to know your enemy; you
need to study your enemy. If you don't know
about him, you cannot fight and you cannot win.
I think I started to study the other martial arts
when I got more deeply involved in the study of
the nine schools.

GN: When did you find out about Bujinkan?

Kacem: It was in France, one teacher at that
time claimed that he was a top student of
Hatsumi Sensei. Sometime later I discovered
that it was not true. This person took a trip to
Japan, got some photos with Soke and a number
of shihan, like most of the people did at that
time, came back to France and claimed to be a
sixth dan. Of course he was not. Being young
and impressionable like most guys my age (I was
fourteen), it's very easy to get caught up in the
whole story. Someone tells you, "I've been to
Japan", and they know a few words in Japanese,
show you pictures of themselves with the ninja
grandmaster, know how to show off by throwing
a couple of shuriken, and you quickly get sucked
in and think to yourself, Ooooohhhhh wow!
I started around 1986. I think I was one of the
youngest guys. That was my start with ninjutsu.
At that time it was not well known as Bujinkan,
most people just called it ninjutsu. The very fIrst
time I saw a video of Hatsumi sensei I had a
very strong suspicion of what was being taught
in that dojo in France. So I decided to go to
Japan myself. It was in year of 1989-1990.

GN: Can you please tell us your lineage in the
Bujinkan?

Kacem: I started studying ninjutsu in France
with a guy named Sylvain Guintard, but it was
not a true start. I wouldjust frequent the dojo, 2
or three times per week. I was not considered a
student or anything. My real starting point was
when I went to Japan in 1989-90 and saw that
everything I learned before was wrong. My true
teacher is Ishizuka sensei. We can say that the
guy who told me about Hatsumi sensei was
Sylvain, but I do not consider myself as his
student as he doesn't consider me as his student.
My teacher, my master is Ishizuka sensei.

GN: When you train in Japan, you know the
training is going to be safe and controlled.
Have you ever experienced any fear in your
training with Ishizuka sensei or Hatsumi
sensei?

Kacem: First I don't train, I practice. There is a
very big difference between the two words.

Training is when you go to class two or three
times a week, put on your gi and workout with
other people. Practice is everyday.
It's the way you walk, the way you sit, the way
you act when around people. It's something
very different from inside, practice is always
alone. I started practicing by myself in 1989. I
have been Ishizuka sensei's uke many times, as
well as uke for Hatsumi sensei from time to time.
It's not fear; it's more than that.

GN: Can you share something about your
teacher?

Kacem: Ishizuka sensei, is a true gentleman. A
really sincere honest man, which is very rare
nowadays in the Bujinkan. Someone who
doesn't tell you lies or do things such as say, "
you are good, very good" to your face, then
when your back is turned says bad things. He
doesn't sell rank and he loves the art for the art.
He is someone who shines; this man has a real
aura. I've known him since 1989. He never
changed the price of his classes, he never lied to
me or ever said, "Oh you are good", "You are
great", ''now you understand" he hasn't
changed at all. The way he is at his home and
the way he is during training is the same. I know
because I stayed in his home, not in the dojo or
some hotel, but in his home. In my opinion, this
man is one of the best copies ofHatsumi sensei,
but he is not the only one. I have seen all the
other shihan, and some will say, "Kacemjust
says this because he is close with Ishizuka
sensei", some who are close with Mr. Oguri, Mr.
Seno, or Mr. Someya, or Mr. Shiraishi or Mr.
Nagato are going to say the same things. This is
not a problem. I respect everyone's point of
view; the difference is that, I like to look at the
facts.

Like for example how a sensei treats people in
their classes, their real purpose, if they keep on
practicing or just keeping on studying. Never
forget that the way people move, talk, act, reflect
how they really are inside, and if you are able to
see this, you can see things that make your eyes
open for ever. . . . . .but of course I am not saying
that I have this type of vision, beyond vision. I
amjust fourth dan and I don't judge people who
are of the top rank, actually I am not interested in
being like them. The real goal is to reach or to
be close to the level of Takamatsu sensei and
Hatsumi sensei's way of moving and
form ..one must always have a high vision
(or goal), even if you can not reach it, it helps to
strive to try to come as close as possible.

One day Ishizuka sensei was brutally honest with
me and said," You mow Kacem, when I started
with Hatsumi sensei I was 16 years old. "Soke
showed us many, many things, but there are
many more things that he didn't show us, there
are many things that we don't mow",
commented Ishizuka sensei. When you ask
some people about certain things in ninjutsu
(kata, techniques, etc...) they say," Yes I mow, I
mow , Hatsumi sensei told me , He said to
me " but they don't really mow. The way
people act and carry (show) themselves is the
real proof of what they want and what they really
are, even ifI confessed that everyone, including
me are looking for something. The nature of this
something will depend on everyone's heart and
their will's nature.

With Ishizuka sensei, just this level of honesty, I
have never had with anyone else. What can I
say it's like a father or Godfather, something like
that. It's difficult to talk about. I don't like to
talk about sensei too much because it's personal.

The people who will read this will probably
think, "well this guy call Kacem is doing a great
job of advertising for Ishizuka sensei", well this
is not the truth, because I prefer to keep him only
for him, such as when you keep a treasure. I
don't care about the politics or the bad mouthing
that people have done behind his back and also
behind mine own. I mow the man, and that's
that. Ninjutsu, kobujtsu, is not about politics or
talking, It is about practice, love of the art, not
selling techniques or creating an empire or ones
own organization within the organization.
Ishizuka sensei never disrespects Hatsumi sensei
and never puts any shame on the Bujinkan or
Hatsumi sensei's name. Ifpeople like to think
this, well what about their level and skill in the
art? Normally when you become a good
instructor you should not take part in these
politics. Always look for the truth and not take
as gospel what the masses might think or say.
Ninjutsu is to face reality, if someone is talking
bad about someone, go to see them
yourself... The only thing I can say, as I
have said to many people, is to encourage
everyone here when you go to Japan to go to the
class of every shihan, watch them and don't
listen to anyone who says you are good and then
quickly rank you. Watch the way the person
(sensei) is with each student, the way he
demonstrates the form, his way of smiling, if it's
just for ceremony or ifhe smiles from the heart,
watch all of this, then after you decide.

GN: You were commenting earlier that many
high-ranking Bujinkan people are sloppy with
their techniques, for example when they
punch. What do you think is the biggest thing
for people from kyu rank and up (dan level)
to improve upon?

Kacem: Too be more humble... and not to say
that I mow something that they don't mow.
Hatsumi sensei shows many things, but the truth
is no one practices these things. They watch him
and only practice with their own eyes, with their
own interpretation; it's not the same thing.
Martial arts is not a matter of thinking, it is a
matter of following the master. There is an old
saying in Togakure ryu and Kumogakure ryu,
"You need to be under the masters shadow, and
in order to be under the masters shadow you
must be able to forget yourself, to lose yourself,
and when you forget yourself you can then get
under the masters shadow".

It's a legacy, it's many masters. For the kyu and
the tenth dan, well I'm not the Soke so it's not
for me to say. If anyone can say, ''you attack
. correctly or you attack incorrectly", it is Hatsumi
sensei. He has said many times that you must
have a proper attitude and that you must have
proper kamae.

When you look at pictures ofHatsumi sensei you
see that nothing is out of place. Photos don't lie.
Most other people translate kamae as attitude or
posture. Kamae means... it's the expression of
what is found inside of you, so if your movement
and techniques are stiff then you're stiff inside.
Kamae reflect what you really are inside. Just
look at how people move and you will see how
they are inside. The people who are sloppy (with
punches and such) ask them to be sloppy in front
of someone who does boxing or Muai Thai and
we will see if their sloppy techniques work.
Some people say, "Well we are free, we can do
as we wish", fme, do it in front of another
fighter. We never trained in sparring. Do it and
we will see? For example your teacher Mr. Dean
(Dean Rosthohar, Croatia) did a lot of sparring
before he did ninjutsu so he knows a lot about
things like that.

GN: I've had students complain that we do
too much Kihon happo. For every class do
you think we should do a certain amount of
it?

Kacem: First we need to understand something,
ninjutsu is not meant for teaching. It's not like
Judo, Karate, Kendo where you have a
curriculum. When you do this you kill the art.
That's why there was no curriculum until the
Ten-Chi-Jin. Kilion happo are not just basic or
foundation. In our way of thinking basic or
foundation is not the real meaning of Kilion
happo, for example you may think that the
foundation of a house is the stones. If the stones
are well done the house will be strong. This is
not exactly the correct way of interpreting it. In
ninjutsu the foundation is the sand and the water
you mix, what type of sand and what type of
water, that with the stone makes the foundation.
It's completely different, Kilion happo is
everything. If you translate it as just the eight
basics you make a big mistake. It's the essence
of any style, of using any type of weapon, of
being able to adapt yourself to any type of
situation. I think that if the student (your)
doesn't listen or say's that they don't want to
practice Kilion happo, tell them to go to another
dojo. There are very many people who will be
happy to accommodate them, to rank them and
make them believe that they are good.

There is something very important, a master
must take care of his students, never hurt them,
never take their money and never lie to them.
Sometimes he needs to protect the student from
himself, because some students are far too blind.
Sometimes it is very difficult. It's very easy for
a master to use the student, say if it's a beautiful
girl he might say, "I'm going teach you in
private", or maybe tell you that you don't
understand and that you need to be patient or
maybe it's not your time yet, things like that. To
be a master is difficult, you need not to be
attached too much to the student, but enough
attached to the art to be able to show things
correctly. If you are correct, good! Even when
you show Kilion happo once or one hundred
times they cannot do it, and for them it's like
something new, it's like water. When Hatsumi
sensei does omote gyaku, or ura gyaku, even if
he does it again, everyone is (dumbfounded,
surprised). This is the goal we want to achieve.
Maybe you can mix two Kilion happo together
with gogyo no kata. It's important that they get
the taste of the technique.

GN: What advice do you have for new
students to the Bujinkan?

Kacem: Open your eyes! Do not be blind and
listen to people who after two classes say,"Oh
you're good," and give you a rank. Be aware,
look at everything. Catch the details; even if you
don't know anything about martial arts, watch
the way the teacher instructs, is he polite, does he
use too much politeness in order to keep you in
his training group? Look ifhe hurts people or
uses his knowledge to simply show off making
himself seem important or great. See ifhe
respects other martial arts, even sports. You
don't need to practice martial arts to understand
these things, just see. Don't let them try to
attract you with too much esoteric -mystic stuff,
ki stuff. Martial arts are something for working
with, it's realistic, for example if a teacher hurts
you it's much better to move elsewhere than to
stay there. A real master never hurts his
students, of course there is pain, but it is what we
call constructive pain, you learn from it, life is
like that. He has to show you how the technique
is used (dangerous) but without hurting you, this
is how Hatsumi sensei does it. I have felt this
with Ishizuka sensei as well.

I would like to thank Kacem for taking time out
from his busy schedule to conduct this interview
as well as to thank John Healy from the
Mississauga Bujinkan Dojo for setting up and
helping with this interview.

Kacem carries himself, as do many good
Bujinkan instructors. These people carry
knowledge with them, which could be used in
many dangerous ways if they followed the
wrong path. Yet they follow the straight and
narrow path of truth, justice and peace. I call
these types of people, "Budo Gentlemen".