Interview
with
Kacem
Zoughari
Interview
with
Kacem
Zoughari
- December 14,
2005
(Translated
from the original French)
Kwoon:
Following the ninja boom we saw everything and anything
related to the
subject, so much so that it was often difficult to separate
fact from fiction. Would
you be able to define succinctly for us what are ninja and
in what context did they
evolve, as well as if you have written a book on the
subject?
Kacem
Zoughari
(KZ): Succinctly! On top of that, I did write a book on the
subject... so
you are asking me to condense seven centuries into a few
words!
Well historically, and according to the oldest chronicles,
the ninja was a kind of spy who
lived in the margin of the Japanese warrior society. They
were invited to lend their ser-
vices for a very specific purpose. This purpose was, simply
put, to turn the tide of a bat-
tle that appeared to be unwinnable from the beginning or
perhaps one that got off to a
bad start. By making use of vital information such as
knowledge of strategic regions,
military strategy, anything that can be called the ‘central
nerve’ of war; information,
economy, commerce, I am also talking about food, armaments,
resupply, so the ninja’s
goal was to operate in the shadows in order to bring about
a more certain outcome.
Kwoon:
So then it’s a very broad term?
KZ: It’s broad just like the practice of ninjutsu. However,
the ninja was a practitioner and
not a group. That is to say that this was a person who very
deeply lived the experience
of defeat and sought to avoid any situation that could
force him to relive that experience.
Kwoon:
Have you seen Hatsumi sensei’s famous densho and makimono?
Corol-
lary to that question: Many say that even Takamatsu sensei
did not really posses
a certain number of schools and that ninjutsu was in fact
dead.
KZ: This is a question that comes up a lot, even among
members of the Bujinkan, which
proves that their knowledge is very limited, and that goes
for their way of moving as
well. This goes even for people who have received very high
grades and who present
themselves as direct students of Hatsumi sensei.
First of all, the densho and makimono were not written by
Hatsumi sensei, these are
densho and makimono that were written by Takamatsu sensei.
Among the densho that
Hatsumi sensei received from Takamatsu sensei we find the
writing of Ishitani sensei
who was one of Takamatsu sensei’s three masters. There is
perhaps also the writing of
Toda sensei, Takamatsu sensei’s grandfather, who
transmitted seven schools to him,
but I no longer remember all of the writing that I saw. But
to respond more directly to
your question, yes, and I’m being honest, I have seen the
densho and makimono written
by Takamatsu sensei. I didn’t only see them in a video, I
touched them, I had them in
my hands, what I can say is that I had those of the nine
schools. Among these docu-
ments, densho and makimono, each school has two to three
densho and three to four
makimono, but this isn’t a rule, some schools like
Kukishinden ryu or Takagi Yoshin ryu
can have more densho, as well as Koto ryu and Gikan ryu. On
top of that, Takamatsu
sensei did not write only that. The relationship that he
had with his sole successor over
the course of fifteen years, until the end of his life...
during these fifteen years, he wrote
many things that he transmitted and gave to Hatsumi sensei,
this adds up to a lot.
From what I’ve seen with respect to the nine schools, there
are about a hundred manu-
scripts not including those small books where Takamatsu
sensei explains to Hatsumi
sensei how to realize the techniques. These small books are
like technical chronicles,
they are technical and historical explanations, and there
are a great many of these. Add
to this around two hundred densho and makimono on various
subjects and disciplines
related to ninjutsu and budo in general... there is quite a
wealth of knowledge. When we
see this we can’t help but admire and come to truly respect
the magnitude of the work
and the sum of knowledge accumulated by Takamatsu sensei...
Takamatsu sensei was
really quite prolific!
So yes, the densho and makimono do indeed exist and are
quite real. They are struc-
tured and in addition to the densho, Hatsumi sensei
received what is called jitsuden: or
the real transmission. Before meeting Hatsumi sensei,
Takamatsu sensei had met many
people and was approached by many. Of course the nature of
these relations was that
of a person going to see a teacher twice a week to receive
a certain knowledge. Taka-
matsu sensei gave out manuscripts to some people who had
never even met him and
had nothing more than a written correspondence and they
received their manuscript
from him by mail! There is proof of this. Takamatsu sensei
was very well known among
a circle of highly skilled practitioners but no longer
accepted new students after his
meeting with Hatsumi. By the end of the fifties he had
stopped teaching, and to teach
does mean to transmit!, for quite some time. What’s more is
that he kept his distance
from the shobu kyoku which passed on the teachings of the
Kuki family and of the Kuki-
shinden ryu school. Seeing how things were changing, that
is that that association was
starting to become a bit like the Kodokan in that they were
all judoka, Takamatsu sensei
decided to remove himself to the great regret of those who
ran it. But Takamatsu sensei
was free and didn’t want to be dependent on any one
association, for him the art should
be authentic and transmitted to one single person... of
course, he was the chief instruc-
tor of this organization at the beginning and had many
students, some of whom re-
ceived documents from him, but once again, what was the
true nature of those relation-
ships? That goes as well for content which he taught them.
So yes, these “famous” densho, I had the chance to see them
and read a few. Now to
say that Takamatsu sensei created these schools is hard to
say, and to prove... Even
Hatsumi sensei says openly that he doesn’t know. In the DVD
on Takamatsu sensei
(Takamatsu Toshitsugu saigo no jissen ninja, Quest) we see
Takamatsu sensei move,
we see that there does exist a certain way of moving, which
is unlike what we see in the
other bujutsu of Japan, classical kenjutsu or jujutsu,
which were synthesized in the form
of kata, and the modern budo, judo, karate, all of the
other styles as well, aikido, jodo,
shorinji kenpo, etc. and that proves that this was
something that existed in Japan al-
ready. This ‘something’ was very different from the other
styles and it was transmitted in
secret, in fact so secretly that if no one can understand
it or see it, it isn’t even a secret,
it’s the inability of the people present to understand and
receive this art.
Now, to say that ninjutsu is dead or that it no longer
exists is an error and it demon-
strates the misinformation on the part of those who propose
this hypothesis... it would
be like saying spirituality is dead or that any kind of
esoteric teaching is dead. In fact,
much like gnosis and other esoteric forms, ninjutsu is an
art in which you must show
nothing, allow nothing to be heard and nothing to be seen,
and the knowledge is trans-
mitted to one worthy person. We can already find mention of
this sincerity and secrecy
in the oldest inka ( ) in bujutsu or heiho, called Hitori
ikkoku inka
(
) written by
Kamiizumi Ise no Kami, the founder of the Shinkage ryu in
1566.
Naturally, we could discuss this subject for hours but I
doubt it will get us anywhere
since in the end, the most important thing is still the
practice. In spite of the reality there
will always be people around who say and believe the
opposite. When Moses parted
the Red sea thanks to the power of God, there was a crowd
behind him and many
couldn’t believe what was happening before their eyes. They
surely must have felt that
they were watching a special effect worthy of the biggest
Hollywood blockbuster!... I am
not comparing Hatsumi sensei to Moses, far from it, but
people who don’t want to ac-
cept, or refuse to recognize that which must be, in spite
of the arguments that they pre-
sent, the “what ifs” and “but hows” etc. have always
existed.
Takamatsu sensei had three masters and the closest to him
was Toda sensei, his
grandfather. The next two were Ishitani sensei and Mizutani
sensei. He speaks of them
in his autobiography that has never been revealed to the
public. His autobiography is
), and I believe that I am the first to cite it in my
entitled Meiji Moroku Otoko (
humble book. While I was in Japan I had the immense
privilege to spend two hours with
this autobiography in my hands. So even though I am not so
intelligent and my level of
Japanese is still quite rudimentary, I was able to read
enough to see that these masters
existed and to assure myself of the basis for their
existence.
Kwoon:
Umm... Simple question and pardon my ignorance, but what is
the differ-
ence between a densho and a makimono?
KZ: That’s a very good question, and excuse me for not
answering it earlier: den ( ) is
an ideogram that has two readings, one of which is tsutaeru
which means “to transmit”.
The ideogram sho ( ) suggests a book or writing. It is
therefore a notebook where com-
bat techniques are written along with their different
applications. We also call this more
generally the “mokuroku” ( ); index or glossary of
techniques. There are several types
of densho, there are kudensho where the oral transmissions,
that which we heard, is
written, there is also “oboe gaki”, that which we remember,
so there are different types
of densho.
Finally, the makimono ( ) are in general, scrolls that open
length-wise. We also write
on these the mokuroku, the history of the school, etc...
there exist several kinds in the
martial arts. This is too long to present here but it could
be a good subject for an article
in the future. Again, like the densho, we see makimono
containing either kuden, techni-
cal drawings, etc... but there may or may not be drawings
or explanations, there is no
set formula. Here again, everything is dependent upon the
social status and quality of
the practitioner, whether or not he had the money and
knowledge necessary to obtain
the required material, the right type of ink, paper, the
ability to present his ideas, and
what were his spiritual influences, etc.
Kwoon:
Would you say that the densho are more personal than the
makimono?
That the makimono were more of a technical orthodoxy
whereas the densho
would have been the interpretation or more or less the
personal expression?
KZ: No. In fact the two were given at the same time. Once
the follower became menkyo
kaiden he would generally receive several documents namely
the menkyo, the maki-
mono, and the densho, and one of the oldest forms of menkyo
known in Japan is the
hitori ikkoku ikkajo which means: “One act of transmission
to one person per province”.
This type of document is the first known form in Japan and
was first signed by Kamii-
zumi Ise no Kami, the founder of the Shinkage ryu, but we
suspect that he received one
as well from the Nen ryu school and that this method of
transmission came from this
school but it was not restricted to the martial arts, it
was also used in No, Buddhism,
etc...
One does not go without the other, they are related, the
only difference lies in the object
itself, one is in the form of a book and the other is in
the form of a scroll. They can com-
plete one another or can exist separately but again this
all depends on the financial
means, of the transmission and of the spirit of the author.
Kwoon:
This is a special question from a particular Kwooner
(because I do not
possess the culture necessary to understand it):
Apparently, the state sought in ninjutsu is one of
non-spirit, closer to Taoist wu-
wei than to Zen mu. If this is the case, are there any
specific exercises in ninjutsu
to develop this?
KZ: First of all, there is NO state to be sought in
ninjutsu. If we seek, we will not find it.
This is common knowledge.
You will certainly accuse me of being too sectarian,
spiritually narrow minded, or too
square, but this doesn’t come from me, it is known: When we
seek something, we find it
only very rarely, not to say never. However, and the
experiences of the masters and
sages of the past prove it, it will come once we have
overcome our little self, our ego
and our own self-interest.
Is there a state in ninjutsu? Yes, the state of being at
peace at all times. To be at peace
all the time you must be empty. I am not inventing anything
here, we find the same idea
in many religions, philosophies, and in other martial
traditions, only the method differs.
Wuwei or mu are concepts that come from Taoism and Zen, so
they are from a specific
philosophical framework within which we do not search, for
example: To kill in Bud-
dhism, or in Taoism: To become one with the Way that is the
source of everything and
is found everywhere... Is there a way or a method to get
there? Moreover, is there a
way or a method to grow, to mature, to become a good
father, a good practitioner, a
good friend, or a first-class jerk?
It is basically the same question isn’t it?
I think that we should practice while being sincere,
without seeking a result, it will be the
degree of this sincerity that will allow us to get there or
not.
Now, as for ninjutsu, in my humble knowledge of the
subject, I don’t know of a means or
a method of achieving this and Takamatsu sensei does not
speak of it directly. The only
thing he does say is: “Practice with sincerity”. It is the
nature of this sincerity and how
long it resides within us that is essential I think. The
majority of grand masters speak of
this but in the end everything depends on the level of
sincerity and the deep personal
convictions of each individual... but once again, my
knowledge is extremely limited and
so I don’t really know.
Kwoon:
In an
interview
with Hatsumi sensei published a few years ago by KB,
Hatsumi spoke of the mystery of man; with respect to these
kinds of things, do
you have the same point of view?
KZ: I don’t know, I have no idea what
interview
that is from, on top of that I have read
everything that can be found on ninjutsu in France and in
many other countries, so it’s
all a blur...
Hatsumi sensei speaks in Japanese, and he says quite a bit.
The question is who was
the translator, what was his level of expertise, how was it
translated, on what occasion?
Was it at a Taikai? Hatsumi sensei is a man who knows how
to adapt, so you have to
understand that he would have said whatever the
interviewer
wanted to hear, he tells
people what they want to hear: You are good, you are
strong, you are the best... that is
one of the reasons for grading that often makes him the
target of rumors.
In any case, the mystery of man, that is to say the mystery
of life, was not invented by
Hatsumi sensei, it has been around for a long time...
that’s not such a bad phrase, I
should reuse it in an article! (laughs)
Kwoon:
Speaking of Taoism, we attribute Chinese origins to several
bujinkan ryu.
Have you explored this much?
KZ: Yes, I have explored this idea many times for various
schools. Not only for ninjutsu
but for many classical bujutsu as well. It’s always the
same old song. The martial arts
come from China for the Chinese... in short, the Japanese
say the opposite. It’s a rather
stale argument.
That there may have been a Chinese origin, that depends on
what one means by origin;
in the context of the bujutsu that is often subject to many
factors. For many, ninjutsu
was born in China and developed in Japan with the Chinese
and Japanese.
Kwoon:
This is a hypothesis that is often
heard...
KZ: This is one hypothesis. Of course a hypothesis, we
should stress, does not mean
that it is true... and secondly, we could also say that
these were people who fled China
for some reason and became “naturalized” Japanese citizens.
So they married a Japa-
nese woman, had children, adapted to the Japanese society
and culture, and practiced
with the Japanese. This is an even more probable hypothesis
in my opinion. If there are
in fact Chinese origins then we should be able to find, for
example, styles from the
north, south, and central China, but unfortunately there is
no resemblance whatsoever.
Occasionally we can say that ‘this’ resembles wushu, but
resembling does not mean
that it is.
So there is of course a distant influence by those who
came... However, it is difficult to
say what style, where, and how, in the same way it is
difficult to speak about the origins
of shaolin or certain styles of tai chi, especially with
all of the legends that have been
created and spread over the years.
As far as ninjutsu is concerned, it was born in Japan, the
term comes from Chinese as
the characters come from China, but the nine schools
themselves as well as Iga and
Koga ryu and the methods of moving, utilizing weapons, and
behaving are purely Japa-
nese. Now, parallel to this, there was also a certain style
of ninjutsu that developed in
China thanks to the texts by Sun Tzu, the seven classics on
military strategy, etc. How-
ever, I am sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that, among
our nine schools, if there is
any Chinese influence, it has died out over the ages.
Kwoon:
Even though China is so close to
Japan...
KZ: Well, just as Greek Gnosticism was influenced by the
philosophical concepts of
Socrates and Plato which in turn influenced Islam, and
there are similarities for other
religions as well; everything comes together in the search
for oneness and knowledge!
As long as it tends towards some singularity, everything
comes together.
Now, to say “Oh, that looks like this northern or southern
style, or it looks like karate...”,
is a little week and very human of us as we are always
afraid to say that we don’t know
what it is. It is unique to humans to find similarities in
things in order to reassure our-
selves, isn’t it?
However, if we are talking about karate, any style, the
answer is yes (regarding Chinese
origins) and it is evident even in the kata that are
transmitted today and even if they’ve
been watered down over the ages. Right away we can see the
Chinese influence, it’s
even a little “bastardized” and crude when we consider the
richness of the Chinese mar-
tial arts. The fact that karate was considered to be a
native dance by practitioners of bu-
jutsu during the Taisho period when it was introduced in
Tokyo and Kyoto is proof. We
have to be honest, it was by losing it’s Chinese origins
that karate rigidified. In certain
styles of karate, we notice right away the influence of
northern (shorin) or southern (ha-
kutsuken or wing chun etc.) Chinese styles.
But in ninjutsu even the weapons are completely different.
So to find a Chinese relation-
ship there still remains quite difficult. However, the
important thing is that ninjutsu can
adapt itself to encompass anything and to copy it. Although
this can cause problems for
a practitioner with little depth.
How do you go about uncovering from who to who, and to
what? It’s very difficult. Espe-
cially since Takamatsu sensei spent ten years in China, we
could imagine that he
picked up combat knowledge and techniques over there and
brought them back to Ja-
pan. However, before arriving in China he had already
received transmissions from
three masters. He left for Japan at the age of eighteen and
he had started practicing at
the age of nine under the guidance of his grandfather.
Many people propose theories without actually knowing the
history of Japan and China
or they just dabble in conjecture and forget the
essentials. Japan invaded Korea in 1909
as well as Manchuria and China and they were viewed very
poorly by the Chinese due
to the Nanking massacre, among other things, and they
behaved in an extremely brutal
manner. It should be noted however that the Chinese elite
did not necessarily feel this
way, they were in fact quite open to the introduction of
the Japanese in China and
helped them a lot. It was primarily the common people who
had feelings of disdain to-
wards the Japanese which is understandable in light of the
daily persecution and har-
assment. Therefore to believe that a Japanese person would
be able gain the trust of a
Chinese master and learn secret techniques from him lacks
any logical sense not to
mention knowledge of the history of this period and of this
region of the world. It suffices
simply to consider the example of tai kiken; everyone said
Sawai was the favorite stu-
dent of Wong Jiang Jai but we need to be careful not to
confuse historical reality with
the dream of a disciple who wants to believe that his
master is the best. It is possible
that Sawai was his best student but this assumption is
subject to caution especially
since he was a Japanese soldier in the invading army, a
colonizing force. Moreover,
Takamatsu sensei was not in Japan as a soldier and even
though he wasn’t he never
had such a transmission from a Chinese master. Well, never
say never...
Kwoon:
I have the feeling that this might cause some controversy
on Kwoon...
KZ: It may start something... but I’m talking about
history. Now, if certain people say
Wong Jiang Jai loved Sawai, why not... but Sawai was not a
‘gentleman’, he was a sol-
dier in the ground force sent to China. I don’t mean to put
all Japanese people of this
era in the same pot, but it is good for everyone to
question these things. Just to be
clear, I am not against other people’s arguments, that is
their responsibility, however we
have to avoid saying things like: “I heard according to
some Chinese master that it
seems that, etc.”, to defend our point of view we have to
use tangible, historical proof
not continue to spread the rumors that are so sacred to
guys at the dojo and which blind
students. Once again, I am not accusing anybody, nor am I
trying to stir controversy,
each individual can think as they choose. Again, I am only
presenting history. However,
if we travel around Nanking, even today, there are waves of
protests against the Japa-
nese...
Kwoon:
You seem to be steady at fourth dan even though, from what
I know, pro-
gression in the Bujinkan seems to be much faster in terms
of dans and menkyo. It
definitely appears to be something which is voluntary on
your part, can you ex-
plain this?
Corollary: How are your relationships with other shidoshi
in the Bujinkan?
KZ: Who is that question from? (laughs)
I started when I was quite young with Sylvain Guintard, it
was in 1986 and I remember
before this my father had been transferred to Algeria and I
was studying at a French
high school. I even kept my first registration paper from
the dojo. I started in a club
called the Yamatsuki club and it was located in Charonne.
Four years later, in 1989, I
left for Japan. Just before leaving for Japan the
atmosphere in the dojo (Sylvain had
changed the dojo three times, first the Sanshin dojo in
Portes des Lilas, then one at
Main d’Or in Bastille, then at Vincennes) had changed a
lot, and technically speaking I
had my doubts, especially after having seen Hatsumi
sensei’s videos. I saw that there
was a mixture of techniques from the different schools in
order to cover up a flagrant
lack of knowledge, and he also wanted to become part of the
FFKMA (French Karate
and Martial Arts Federation). So many factors contributed
to me taking the major step of
going to Japan, or should I simply say that it was my time
to go.
When I got to Japan (in 1989) i was only seventeen years
old, and I had a real shock at
my first class with Ishizuka sensei who was, and still is,
one of Hatsumi sensei’s oldest
students. After that, I said to myself that everything I
learned in France before was a
load of... so I was duped, and that really hurt me because
my parents and I had both
invested so much and I was lied to. You might not believe
it, but for a seventeen year
old kid, this was pretty heavy... and I said to myself that
I was stopping with everything
and everyone who called themselves “pioneers”.
During the time I was a student of Guintard everyone was
there: Arnaud Cousergue
was his student and right hand man, there was Dominique
Thibault, Marie Valerie Sau-
mon, Jean Jeacques Kocevar. There were those who came
occasionally to give semi-
nars like Bernard Bordas and Tarik Mesli... and others
whose names I completely for-
get. In any case I knew them all and saw them climb their
way up.
I still remember everything that was said and done and how
things worked. Like many
“families” there were secrets and tricks which, in
retrospect, I find stupid and completely
unnecessary to the practice of the martial arts. Many years
later I lived in Japan as a
Lavoisier grant recipient and I met with Arnaud Cousergue
several times (he goes to
Japan two or three times a year and always stays around ten
days) and translated for
him with Hatsumi sensei and even during the classes, but I
also did that for many peo-
ple over there, for the English, Americans, Swedish,
Germans, Spanish, Brazilians, Ca-
nadians, etc... so I met a lo of people in japan.
So my relationships with these people are amicable, though
as far as martial arts goes,
that’s another story, everyone does their own thing, and
it’s the same case for everyone
in the bujinkan whatever the country.
I know Bernard Bordas well but I haven’t seen him in quite
a while. We send each other
messages from time to time and I saw him in Japan in 2002 I
believe, while I was over
there, I think he sojourned for about fifteen or twenty
days. We went to the restaurant
with Hatusmi sensei and, like for everyone before and after
him, I translated to the best
of my abilities. And like with everyone, we maintained
friendly relations.
Kwoon:
In what way does your view of grades influence these
relations?
KZ: As far as I am concerned, I have always held the same
opinion about grading from
the beginning and I might be a little too old school or
uptight for some. First of all, there
are no grades in ninjutsu and there should not be any. In
the past, and there is substan-
tial historical evidence, there was a system of menkyo like
the one in the classical bu-
jutsu which still exists in certain schools in Japan today.
However, in the process of
opening up to Westerners, Hatsumi sensei adapted himself to
the needs of the time,
even if he knows deep within himself that it doesn’t really
mean anything. It’s important
to realize that the foreigners who come to Japan, and this
goes for every style, do so
merely to leave with grades, with something legitimate to
show or to use as proof. It’s in
this way that Hatsumi sensei gives grades, but the person
who receives it assumes all
responsibility, and in the end it’s only a piece of paper.
Kwoon:
You give them no importance?
KZ: Well, I don’t give them any importance, but I do. They
represent a certain amount of
work, and the work has to be done. This means that if you
say you are a fourth, fifth, or
even fifteenth dan, would it not be wiser to place some
value upon that which you pre-
sent to others either in public or private?
We can’t simply bury our heads in the sand by telling
ourselves that we exist in some
different martial universe. If you are fourth, fifth, or
sixth dan we need to be at that tech-
nical level, that is to say the same as others in their
respective disciplines. Moreover, in
ninjutsu which is the art of a spy, we must be able to
handle any style under any condi-
tion. This is where the idea of being harder on oneself and
against oneself in practice
and with respect to the level which we have attained comes
from. I will also add that the
martial arts in general are based on some common points
like: speed, stability, upright-
ness, rectitude, flexibility... If someone holds a very
high grade and is not able to stay
upright on their own two legs, loses balance, etc... I
sincerely believe that this isn’t nor-
mal. We need to be honest with ourselves about our own
abilities.
Nevertheless, we mustn’t lose sight of the true
significance of the term dan (degree,
level, grade, stage, etc.) and the fact that it originates
from an image that is outside mar-
tial reality as it was created for martial sports after the
Meiji period whose forms were
touched up after the Second World War. So this image cannot
really explain the level of
a person who practices the koryu. Of course we search for
an equivalence but it will al-
ways be just an equivalence.
My approach remains voluntary. I have a teacher; Ishizuka
sensei, and I would feel
awkward accepting a tenth dan when he holds this grade!
That isn’t normal for me.
Even if one day (which I seriously doubt) I become better
than him, for me I would al-
ways be lower than him. It’s a respect within a respect.
This is very difficult for me to
explain, but this is the way it is for me, and as long as I
work with him I will never hold
back because a true relationship must be based in the
moment of combat or the mo-
ment where the technique is realized in real and for reach
the reality. So if I want to get
the right feeling I have to go all the way. If the master
is good he will know how to make
me feel it without destroying me, this is one of the
fundamentals of mastery in ninjustu
and in all martial arts in general.
So automatically I have a fourth dan which I received in
1994, I believe. Since then I
have refused every grade that was offered to me. Why? It is
very simple, it doesn’t in-
terest me. A lot of people have gotten involved in the race
to be the first to obtain a cer-
tain grade or to get some recognition, this is their
choice. Some other people will said I
received from someone and they could not say no. I
understand and I respect their
choice. I always thought differently.
whereas I felt uncomfortable with a fourth dan where the
expectations are already very
high in even the basic, fundamental techniques. For me,
being a fourth dan means be-
ing capable of doing and realizing all of the techniques
from the first three levels (sho-
den, chuden, and okuden) of the nine schools, weapons
included... this was and still is
the requirement.
I think that I am at the level of a third dan and I am
working and practicing hard to
someday, and of course God willing, be worthy of a fourth
dan. It is also a question of
honesty with respect to practice, and with respect to the
art. It may be a old fashioned
way for many people in the Bujinka, but I ll not accepted
something that I don’t deserved
by real practice and deep studies.
The rest, what other people do and aspire to doesn’t matter
to me. They do what they
want. But once again, I think that we shouldn’t bury our
heads in the sand with regards
to titles and high grades as there is nothing to acquire in
the classical martial arts and
particularly in ninjutsu.
I have always had the habit, and I think you already know,
that when a person comes to
one of my classes and asks what grade I am, I answer by
saying: “You come, watch the
class, and give me the grade you want.”
Kwoon:
Do you feel that a fourth dan is a good middle ground
between that which
you demand of yourself and the level of
requirement...
KZ: That which I demand of myself is far beyond anyone
else’s requirements. The peo-
ple who come here, the people who know me can see it for
themselves. Besides, I
never make a display out of my capabilities nor of my
“grades” or activities. As for my
articles or seminars, other people or editors create
phrases that are catchy or attractive
to get people to come or to buy. The only thing that I can
use is the fact that I am a doc-
toral candidate and that’s because it is what I am doing.
Within the martial arts I am but
one small researcher and but one small student of Ishizuka
sensei. I follow Hatsumi
sensei’s classes just like all the others who go to Japan
and pay their dues. I have
never presented myself as a student or direct disciple of
Hatsumi sensei as that would
be a great lie. I do not consider myself a student of
Hatsumi sensei and even if I must
admit to having some kind of relationship to him, the
nature of that relationship has yet
to be defined. I think that a lot of people do not
understand the difference between being
a student or what really means being recognize as a real
disciple is. This difference is
the same as show, teach and transmission. People love to
hear and creat thing or their
own story and tell to everyone how great they are, using
the name of Hatsumi sensei to
backup them is natural and it exist in other organization
too. I don’t think that doing like
this can help to move better or to understand better the
art. So once again, I fellow the
rules of the bujinkan for the practice and fellow the rules
presented by the Hatsumi sen-
sei. But because I respect him and the art very deeply I
can not accept thing that I don’t
really deserved it.
So, yes, I am very demanding of myself and I hope it that
shows in my work and my ar-
ticles, if not then I shall have to double my effort. I
have also made these requirements
clear to the people who come to my classes, however I am
not responsible for their
level and even less for their actions and their attitude.
After the class is over, twice a
week, I no longer see anyone. Everyone leads their own
life.
Kwoon:
What continues to motivate you to train at this time? If
you had to stop
what would motivate you to do so?
KZ: That’s a very interesting question. I like it. What
motivates me... (thinks)
Kwoon:
If you were to ask yourself...
KZ: Frankly, I have never asked myself the question. Since
it is not my business, my
job, I am free to do as I please. However, if it was my job
or my business, then I would
be motivated to feed my family, and so on. In that case
there is a conflict of interests.
But, God willing, that is not the case for me. All that to
say that I don’t ask myself that
question. I have a relationship to a teacher, a master, and
having that master-disciple
relationship, a real and sincere relationship, I cannot
allow myself to say no or I am
stopping, etc. There are things that have been given to me,
shown, that I was permitted
to see... if all of a sudden one day I say no, that would
be strange wouldn’t it?
Besides, if things were shown to me it may be because of
this reason, because I never
quit, and because that word never entered my heart. Since
the time I began to give
classes, conferences, I see those who come, others who
don’t come, others who ask
themselves existential questions, others are seeking a
master, some want to prove that
they are truly sincere, etc... in the end... who really
keep the sincere heart of the begin-
ning?(thinks). I think that as we practice the martial
arts, the word motivation ceases to
exist. We become that motivation, it’s a kind of faith, we
do it because we feel the need
to. It is the nature of this need that differs between
practitioners and people.
It is difficult to answer... So what pushes me? The love of
things? The art? It may sound
a little stupid what I am saying, loving the art, to love
art. Not to exploit it, just a sincere
love of the art. What could make me stop? Of course death?
Although I have never met
anyone who has come back from beyond... maybe I can
continue up there, if God
wishes it...
Kwoon:
Have you studied the Chinese or Japanese energy system? If
yes, is it
within the framework of ninjutsu? And are there ties
between the kyusho in nin-
jutsu and other approaches such as Mr. Dillman’s or the one
in Chinese dim
mak?
KZ: Kyusho... there are two ways to write this in Japanese,
or rather, there are several
ideograms which correspond to different levels of
comprehension depending on the
style, the student, the master, etc. Of course, kyusho have
existed for a very long time
in the bujutsu and ninjutsu is no exception. Some styles
are flashier, others, depending
on the background of the master or founder, if he was a
doctor or if he was a boneset-
ter, he will develop certain aspects more than others, take
for example the Hakko ryu.
But in general the martial arts are a solitary practice
where one must know how to over-
come pain, how to practice and use their body, also know
how to heal oneself, know
how to eat, what to eat, and when and how to eat it,...
So yes, in ninjutsu this does exist but it does not consist
of sitting and doing zazen or
meditating under a waterfall while doing kuji. I respect
people who do this practice, par-
ticularly if they are sincere, but this has nothing to do
with the martial arts, though it can
of course be beneficial. In the martial arts, like in life,
if we practice correctly, sit cor-
rectly, move correctly, use the body correctly, the energy
system is already there...
Kwoon:
This is from a practical perspective?
KZ: Yes.
Kwoon:
And from a theoretical perspective with respect to the five
elements and
other models, does Hatsumi consider these too complex for
the general public?
KZ: I believe that sensei is already above all of that, he
knows it but does not attach to it
a vital importance, it is not the driving force. These are
important details but not vital. He
received certain things from Takamatsu sensei and his sole
preoccupation is following
the path set forth by his master without changing anything,
all the while adapting to the
world around him, and nothing more. So he has surely read
things on the subject, given
the denshos and makimonos that he possesses. There are
those from Takamatsu sen-
sei, and there are those that he had before Takamatsu
sensei, which is quite a bit since
he met him at the age of twenty-seven after having started
to train at the age of six. He
bought his first makimonos at nineteen! So, up until the
age of twenty-seven he
amassed quite a few things. Since he came from a wealthy
family on top of that, all of
his money went to either his studies in the martial arts or
into purchasing weapons and
denshos from all over Japan... And as far as the body’s
energy system is concerned, as
we practice we begin to ask ourselves questions, especially
as we age and our injuries
begin telling us things. However, if we practice well and
meet a man like Takamatsu
sensei, who at seventy years old was doing flips on one
finger, and even until the age of
eighty was able to give anyone a good thrashing, we start
to ask questions about his
way of moving. Hatsumi sensei had the chance to meet a
master of this calibre and be-
come his last disciple.
Therefore automatically, the way of moving is the most
important thing. If we want to be
vegetarian, to follow the macrobiotic diet, dietetics, to
do yoga, taichi, Qigong, zazen,
each individual makes their own choice and there is nothing
wrong with that. We are all
free. But if the way of moving is incorrect, and since we
are a holistic unit, I will let you
guess what will become of the health. It’s like in
religion; just because we pray from
morning till night does not mean that we will have perfect
health or even unshakeable
faith... There is of course a distinction that has to be
made: Will this movement allow me
to be effective, but also “effective” in the sense that I
will be able to keep my health.
As far as I’m concerned, and according to the many things
I’ve read in, and the course
of my university studies, this is what the energy system
amounts to. This is very inter-
esting, but it often remains at the level of theory. What
interests me in the martial arts is
practice, action. Reading about theories is fine but what
value does that have in prac-
tice?
Kwoon:
Okay, is there a kind of pragmatism
somewhere?
KZ: I always take a pragmatic approach in my research. The
essence of martial arts is
pragmatic.
Kwoon:
What do you feel are the major misgivings of your
students?
KZ: Well, first of all, I don’t like to judge my students.
All I can say is that I have inti-
mately experienced what it is to be a student. As for the
people who come to my
classes, I am not in their heads.
The problem is that we live in France and we’re “spoon
fed”, many people say: “Yes, I
met the master”, “I did this, or that”, “I worked with so
and so”, but who knows what it
really means to “be their student”. If it means paying a
fee and coming two or three
times a week... to be with someone for fifteen years, if
this is what it means to be some-
one’s “student”, fine. However, we have to realize that
there is a difference between be-
ing a pupil, a student, a disciple, and a son. Some use the
term “spiritual son”, why not,
but for that one must be the successor of a master. I think
that we first become a stu-
dent and we later become a disciple once we have actually
received a transmission and
sense that there is something real. But beware! the master
is very strong, he is the one
who chooses the student, not the reverse. The opposite is
very rare in the history of the
classical martial arts. I will add that the pupil is always
tested by the master. I have noth-
ing against any of my students, they are who they are and
do not have the same aspira-
tions as me, we’re different.
Their faults? If they have faults they are surely because
of me since they receive trans-
mission from me... I show them, so they copy my mistakes.
But even here it is tough to
say, because I cover them up very well, and because they
don’t live with me and don’t
know me. It is very difficult because ninjutsu is the art
of concealment... Seriously
though, the only fault is... I will stick with the words I
said a moment ago: “I have inti-
mately experienced what it is to be a student”. That’s all.
Kwoon:
What is the role of ukemi in ninjutsu?
KZ: The same role as every other combat technique.
Kwoon:
Survival?
KZ: Of course.
Kwoon:
It’s so simple! (laughs)
KZ: ... And survival in a good sense; not with a mangled
arm or a leg short, no! Survival
in the sense of ukemi: a body that receives. How the body
receives, in what way... It’s
very different from what you will find in judo or even in
what we will call “modern-day”
jujitsu.
Kwoon:
How are they different?
KZ: The problem with modern jujitsu is that it is all of
the old judoka who are practicing
it; so automatically they don’t know how to do jujitsu. We
often forget that Kano prac-
ticed jujitsu before creating judo, but he did it in a
rather precarious way with only six or
seven years of practice at most. Therefore his science of
ukemi was really quite limited.
Although he did read a lot; after all he was a visionary
and a man of great intelligence.
But his knowledge of jujitsu was still rather fragmentary,
contrary to what we tend to be-
lieve.
The problem with ordinary judoka, (and I say an ordinary
judoka right, not someone who
studies the reasons techniques are a certain way and stays
open to other styles), is that
they know nothing about jujitsu, they see jujitsu through
the eyes and the practice of a
judoka. In the same way that people try to see ninjutsu
through the eyes, and therefore
the experience, of a judoka, aikidoka, or even a koryuka.
The way of performing ukemi
is unique, you have to be able to do ukemi with weapons or
even while holding some-
thing precious, like a child for example... These are
rather special ukemi; we also have
to avoid making any noise.
For example, the ukemi that Kuroda Tetsuzan practices in
his school, the shishin ta-
kuma ryu, are at this time, I won’t say the most pure but
the ones that are closest to
what you can find in ninjutsu because there is a real sense
of absorbing the ground
without injury. That sounds a little strange what I just
said: Absorbing the ground... Any-
way, let’s say that the point is to role without injuring
oneself, without hitting the ground,
and of course to role anywhere, not just on tatami.
Kwoon:
Do you know about the Hakkun ryu?
KZ: Yes! In ninjutsu? In ninjutsu, because I don’t know
about it otherwise: It was
founded by Hakkun Issai who was one of the first disciples
of Iga Zaemon Ienaga, foun-
der of Iga ryu. I am saying this from memory, I might be
mistaken... So it was a school
of ninjutsu that developed in Iga with certain
ramifications in Koga; essentially koppo-
jutsu and koshijutsu and a special use of the sword, a form
of espionage as well, a type
of guerilla warfare, use of the battle axe (ono), and
shikomi zue, a specific kind of shuri-
ken (Iga-tsune shuriken), and a kind of use for the rope
and kusari gama. They are in
the nine schools, one of the two schools that were
transmitted by Ishitani sensei to Ta-
kamatsu sensei: Hakkun ryu.
Kwoon:
Then could we say that there are ten
schools!?
KZ: No, No, there are nine schools but let’s say that the
teaching of this school was
given, it was transmitted, but not in the system of menkyo
kaiden or soke.
Kwoon:
Then it consists of techniques, feelings,
principles...
KZ: Let’s say “concepts” and principles but the principles
are the same in all schools of
ninjutsu. After that there are simply certain specifics
that will change but it remains basi-
cally Iga ryu or Koga ryu.
Kwoon:
Do you believe that we can really practice several schools
of traditional
martial arts at once?
KZ: That depends on whether or not they are interrelated;
if so the answer is yes. If not
it’s impossible.
Kwoon:
When can we say that they are “interrelated”?
KZ: When we discover the common denominator or once it is
shown to us. In any case,
if we are talking about classical schools, before Edo or
mid-Edo, each one has eighteen
defined disciplines: the bugei ju-happan, that were
documented in fifteenth century
China as well as for the first time in Japan, in the middle
of the Edo period. However, if
these schools possess eighteen disciplines, it means that
they also possess something
which permits them to pass quickly from one discipline to
the next, if not it’s impossible.
You would need eighteen lives to learn all of that.
Similarly, it would take nine lives to
learn the nine schools.
Hatsumi sensei is not the type of person who would want to
create the nine schools!
Otherwise he would have created them at the beginning given
the knowledge he al-
ready had amassed and the people he knew. Takamatsu sensei
maybe, but even there
it’s not certain. It’s difficult to create a school, it
requires genius to ensure that the tech-
niques don’t all resemble one another and then to discover
what they all have in com-
mon... So, yes it is possible to practice several schools
if we have the master to show
us how and if and only if we have the necessary capacities
and convictions.
Kwoon:
All things considered, and since we are in the business of
budo, is it
possible to ask you how we should approach the system
created by Hiroo Mochi-
zuki?
KZ: Well, All things considered, it’s not possible.
First of all, we have to look at his background: His
father, Minoru, was a judoka, so eve-
rything that he practiced was done under the supervision of
a judoka no matter what
that was. The manner in which he practiced Katori shinto
ryu had nothing to do with
what Otake was doing.
Sugino, who was very close to Minoru, and who learned from
the same master who...
how can I put this... didn’t “show them everything”. They
were judoka, they practiced
Daito ryu in a “judoka” way. They were able to very quickly
retain because they already
had a form, a method: The Kano method, which was a super
method of learning. But to
say that they practiced classical martial arts... isn’t the
same.
Minoru wanted to extract the essence... but the essence
from the point of view of a ju-
doka. What does that mean? Particularly when we don’t
actually know the experience of
combat, I am talking about combat to survive, not about
randori or competition. They
never truly received the real transmission from the koryu.
They had several masters!
You can’t have a master of judo, a master of aikido, a
master of this and that, it isn’t
possible.... a master is A master, who will teach you the
whole koryu, a bit like Takeda
Sokaku who, in some sense, showed a certain form to
Ueshiba... if you have several
masters that means you have several hearts to follow...
have you ever seen a man with
several hearts? If you have please let me know!
Kwoon:
Hatsumi changed his style of teaching between the seventies
and eight-
ies; it seems as though you went to Japan and experienced
the old structure.
What do you feel the difference is?
KZ: First of all, Hatsumi sensei had no assistant: Let’s
make that clear. His first stu-
dents, Mr. Manaka and Mr. Tanemura, left to create their
own thing which proves that
they were not real students. A student, in the true sense
of the word, stays until the end,
a true disciple. When we have a treasure right under our
nose and are not even capable
of seeing it... Mr. Tanemura and Manaka created their own
systems, and even if we
look at the very first videos that date from 1973/4, we can
see Hatsumi sensei showing
techniques (no one has this video and it is not sold
anywhere), we can see even here
that the level of Mr. Tanemura and Manaka does not
correspond to Hatusmi sensei’s
form. What this means basically, is that Hatsumi sensei
left them totally free to do as
they pleased in their practice, so they did what they
wanted and created their own sys-
tems: They do not resemble Takamatsu sensei whatsoever in
their form, etc... There-
fore we cannot call them assistants. They were people who
practiced a form, a martial
art that they had never heard of before. When I arrived in
Japan in 1989/90, Tanemura
had already created his own system. Like everyone who went
in japan, I was able to
meet the shihan that were training with Hatsumi sensei; I
still remember Mr. Manaka be-
fore he left, I remember Mr. Oguri, Mr. Noguchi, Mr.
Someya, etc, there was at the time,
a very old disciple named Mr. Kobayashi who was one of the
first people that we can
see on the koppojutsu and Takagi tapes, if I remember
correctly.
So I worked, actually worked is a big word, I was seventeen
at the time, I was pointed in
the right direction of the dojo, I payed, I went to class
like everyone else, I was a client
like all the others, so to say I worked is a big word.
And there was Ishizuka sensei, at the time he was famous in
the bujinkan and for his
way of moving, very close to the basic show by Hatsumi
sensei in the very beginning.
This is someone who even named his children Mae, Sae, and
Aki without realizing it! It
is afterall Hatsumi sensei’s name! He is rather special and
I feel that he loved the art
more than the others and it showed in his form. There was
something that attracted me,
more than with the others in any case. It was a question of
personal taste that in the end
grew into something very fruitful. Little by little as I
practiced more seriously, I realized
that his form was closer to Hatsumi sensei’s at the
beginning, I then later discovered
that he had met Takamatsu sensei, like Mr. Manaka, Mr.
Tanemura, Mr. Oguri, and Mr.
Seno but he kept a very vivid image of Takamatsu sensei in
his mind, even to this day!
There were seven who met with him and Mr. Tanemura and Mr.
Manaka were among
them. And through it all, it was Ishizuka sensei who was
always the most honest with
me. He never raised his prices, he would tell me: “Listen,
there are things that Hatsumi
sensei showed us and other things that he has not shown us.
He has never taught us
anything, he has never loved teaching”. None of the others
have told me this, they all
repeat: “Yes, Hatsumi sensei showed me this, he told me
this...” So it was this sincerity,
this integrity... which made me stay with him. He also
never got involved in the politics
even though he always helped Hatsumi sensei. Those are the
reasons why have stayed
with Ishizuka sensei since 1989... It has been a little
while, but it still feels like yesterday
to me. Here its important that people mark my words, I am
not telling that the other shi-
han are bad, wrong, etc. it was the choice I made to stay
with Ishizuka sensei, other po-
ple prefer choose different shihan or organization, this is
their choice. I don’t judge
them. I just look the fact and especially how most of the
shihan are now acting in the
bujinkan.
Has Hatsumi sensei changed? I don’t believe so, I believe
he has simply changed with
times, adapted to the needs of the moment. You can’t teach
ten people the way you
teach twenty or fifty. But he stays the same...
It’s true that some people are always nostalgic of the
past... yes, nostalgia... some prac-
ticed during that period and I can see that they are not as
good, one need only look at
Stephen Hayes who arrived one or two years after the death
of Takamatsu sensei, and
his way of moving, excuse me, but I did not saw on his way
of moving something close
to what is Takaamtsu sensei or Hatsumi sensei’s ways of
moving........... anyhow, it
isn’t because we were there during that period that we are
one of the best or that we are
good. I think many people get confused with this. There
were people who saw Jesus,
lived around him, spoke with him, but this did not prevent
them from being stupid people
or from being narrow minded... The same goes for Moses and
for the Prophet in Islam,
it’s the same everywhere.
Kwoon:
I can put this on Kwoon?
KZ: Of course! Why, did I attack anyone in particular?
Kwoon:
Okay, Okay...
KZ: It isn’t because we were close to the source at a given
time that we automatically
absorb everything. Sometimes you can drink pure water only
to have it change at the
last second because it mixes with your breath, your saliva,
with the deposits on your
tongue, or with what is inside you... To the one who is
able to keep the water pure until
the very end, my hat goes off to you!
The research that I started on the martial arts have led me
to one conclusion: That I
have not yet completed my research! (laughs) and to tell
you the truth I don’t think I ll
complete on day, which is good, like this I can keep on
practice and learning. Some-
thing very important in ninjutsu’s art is the continuity.
Historically, the martial arts were made for an elite few.
In the Period like muromachi, or
sengoku for one master there were only ten students, maybe
twelve or fifteen, but not
more. Each received different diplomas and only one would
become the successor. So
it was elitist from the beginning. We Europeans with our
way of thinking, have the ten-
dency to see the martial arts with the idea that they are
open to everyone, and this is a
huge mistake, a huge mistake, since we are forgetting the
reasons for the transmission
of an art or a science. Even if we look at Greek or
Christian Gnosis, we realize that
there is the same process of elitist transmission.
Once again, Hatsumi sensei has not changed anything. I
arrived at a time when they
were, more or less, showing the basics. Once again, to show
them does not mean to
transmit them! Or to teach them. And its important to be
aware that the one who show
the basic, did in their own way they understood, so its
more an personal interpretation,
rather than the real basic. Even the people who create
their own organization had their
own way of doing.
When I arrived in Japan I was alone, seventeen years old,
and I practiced alone from
what I had in my memory of what Ishizuka sensei and his
seniors had shown me. To
copy Hatsumi sensei hum hum... already at the time it was
impossible, so today... you
have to have a process; there is a process to learning
technique the same way there is
a process to transmission, the two go together, that’s
life... If you want to copy a man,
who today is seventy years old, you’re making a big
mistake. What you should be copy-
ing is the process that allowed him to get to this point...
If the process is piecemeal,
without any real transmission, you will damage your body
and miss a great many things.
This is because the goals of bujutsu techniques are to kill
and stay alive, if you do not
know how to realize them you will injure yourself without
even knowing it, then age will
catch up with you and teach you the lesson...
However this a process that allows Hatsumi sensei to
maintain unbelievable flexibility,
spiritual vitality, and incredible movement... Having this
process that has made him what
he is at present, is a good thing. This process isn’t
exclusive to Hatsumi sensei, other
masters have their own. You have to know how to study and
observe so as not to re-
peat the same errors over and over; hence the art of
listening. Although you need
someone to show you the keys... As far I go, Ishizuka
sensei showed me some keys, he
showed me a few things. I worked at it, and I still work at
it even now. At present, I am
sufficiently close to him to know what is good and what is
bad. Often when he tells me
things he says: “Listen, I learned this like that, I do it
like this. You do it like I learned it.”
And this is an honesty that I haven’t found anywhere else
not even among the teachers
in France or in other countries. Most of the Japanese
shihan said “I do it like it is said in
the densho”, but the densho is only paper, that’s important
to keep in mind. It only
means something to someone who has received a real
transmission. It is useless to
someone who has nothing! It becomes mere interpretation.
What I want to explain here
is densho can be understood only by someone who received
the key and the full trans-
mission. This key and full transmission depend of the
nature of the heart of the disciple.
This is a crucial condition in nay koryu. I did enough
studies to understand that. Also Its
very easy to see how the shihan themselves does the
technique in their own way, all
read the same densho but they realize the technique
according their own understanding
and their own way of being. For me, I am nnot interest by a
interpretation or “a way of
moving”. I am interesting by what Takamatsu sensei give to
Hatsumi sensei, the real
technic. I don’t think that I act wrongly in this way.
Anyway, Hatsumi sensei hasn’t changed anything. He is the
same as always, he’s sim-
ply a little older. The dojo has remained open to all, he
simply adapted with respect to
the demand... without ever having taken a disciple of
course.
Kwoon:
With regards to Ishizuka, do you know what made him stay
with
Hatsumi? He came from Shorinji kempo, is that
right?
KZ: First of all, like most of the Japanese, he was a judo
practionner. I even heard that
he was pretty good. He practiced shorinji kempo, aikido,
some karate, but he was from
the beginning, a very good judoka. He was competing in the
Japan national champion-
ship when, he dislocated his shoulder. He went to Hatsumi
sensei’s clinic to fix it.
Hatsumi sensei was the only doctor in Noda back in this
days.Ishizuka sensei also lived
in Noda and knew Hatsumi sensei by name only. He put his
shoulder back into place
and while he was at Hatsumi sensei’s house, which also
served as a dojo, he noticed
some weapons. Ishizuka sensei asked him what they were, and
Hatsumi sensei replied
“Oh, those are for old martial arts”... At the time he only
had two students, and even
then they only went from time to time. He asked him what he
does, “Oh I do shorinji
kempo”.
Ishizuka sensei was still young at the time, he was what...
sixteen years or seventeen
years old then, he was sure of himself and his abilities,
and talent as a fighter. He asked
Hatsumi sensei if he could ‘test’ him. In a word, he got
fried. This pleased him right
away, it opened his eyes. He didn’t know what ninjutsu was,
like most Japanese people!
It’s similar to a person from France who speaks of
d’Artagnan without knowing if he is a
great swordsman or a good musketeer (in the sense of
someone who uses a musket).
For him, ninjustu was still something out of a comic book.
He even met Saiko Fujita!
That is still something! and Ueno Takeshi! He met many
people thanks to Hatsumi sen-
sei, including Nawa sensei (who died few months after
this
interview)!
Ishizuka sensei
said it himself: “He changed the way I look at the world”.
He calls him the godfather.
That means something. If Ishizuka sensei stayed with
Hatsumi sensei it was because
he offered something completely different... At the time,
talking about ninjutsu when
there was only judo, karate, aikido, kendo, shorinji
kempo... the practice of koryu was
quite something. In somewhat the same way as Katori shinto,
jodo, or jojutsu, which
were better known, for many people, Nawa sensei and Hatsumi
sensei were the spe-
cialists in the old schools... They were the ones who were
most widely seen on the tele-
vision. Some people came on from time to time but...
perhaps for the them it was also a
question of jealousy on the part of those who did their own
thing and said: “We possess
the real thing”.
Kwoon:
What is your present occupation?
KZ: My thesis! Because it’s a thesis on the classical
martial arts and movement, it is
quite large. I am working mostly with old manuscripts on
the martial arts. Historically,
these were called heiho, which is strategy with a capital
‘S’, and ranges from a simple
school of jujutsu all the way to a school of bujutsu
complete with the eighteen disci-
plines. There you are, that is my thesis, I am working
exclusively with old manuscripts.
The oldest of which I just finished translating was written
in 1566 and had never been
translated into french. I also work on old densho written
before 1566, some frome the
Kage-ryû and other from the Nen-ryû and the the
Kashima-ryû. I also have found some
scroll of the chûjô-ryû as well.
Kwoon:
Do you know when you will be finished?
KZ: I hope to finish this year. This year was difficult,
there were many mishaps and
some things that very deeply touched my family, and since I
often work abroad or give
conferences, it wasn’t always easy. I try to avoid working
too much in France because, I
have to be honest, it doesn’t pay. We aren’t very respected
for what we do, apart from
two or three professors who really like my work, but that
won’t allow me to find a decent
job and feed my family. I also have a large family, I have
my parents to take care of and
my brothers too, I can’t allow myself to fall behind. As
far as University conferences are
concerned the best are abroad. I have the chance to do a
few seminars abroad but this
is insignificant compared to the number of conferences. I
always try to combine semi-
nars and conferences to avoid being away longer than
necessary since I am a bit of a
homebody.
Kwoon:
What are the other disciplines that interest you right now?
Whether to
practice or simply because you hold them in high
regard...
KZ: I love all martial arts! I love all classical martial
arts, be they Japanese or Chinese, I
also like the Indian martial arts like kalaripayat... the
work they do with message and oils
is really quite interesting. I like kali, the history of
kali and the Spanish invasion, these
people were very strong... after all the Spanish were very
skilled fencers and hardened
fighters. In any case, I’m not biased; I love all martial
arts. I like read and stdeis every-
thing about martial even f m basic are frst Japanese
classical martial arts.
Kwoon:
You have quoted, in many instances, the Sufi tradition, do
you have any
particular connection to this tradition?
KZ: No, not at all. Here again, I love all religious
traditions whether esoteric or exoteric. I
also like Gnosis, Kabbalah, anything associated with God,
the one, oneness, I like... So
things that touch me, I quote, the same goes for the
martial arts. Sometimes if I read
something in a manuscript and I really like it, I will go
and see the current soke or the
instructor and tell him: “This isn’t possible”, or “I find
that hard to believe”. What I mean
to say is that there is a discrepancy between what is
written by the founder in the manu-
script and what the master or instructor is showing me. I
have had quite a few friendly
altercations with masters or researchers in Japan when they
would ask me if I know
about old martial arts; I would reply yes, then they would
ask if I had ever seen any; I
would say yes, of course, then when they would start to
talk about the nihon budokai, or
the nihon budo videos: I think to myself, if these are the
old budo where we move stiffly
like it isn’t permitted in their original manuscripts... I
would prefer sincerely, to stop train-
ing.
As far as I’m concerned, the kobujutsu, koryu, or kobudo
cannot be restricted or limited
to a few rigid kata mixed with a belief in a pseudo samurai
spirit. Moreover, as we read
the writings and manuscripts we see something totally
different. So I can’t believe this...
I refuse to believe this! In any case, there are reasons
why things have progressed the
way they did, to this breaking point. It’s easy to explain
etymologically, historically, and
sociologically... I can also, within the boundaries of my
humble knowledge, explain to
whoever... I do it in Japan in front of the top
researchers; this is part of my university
work. Then there are people’s sensibilities. Many people’s
sensibilities are insulted be-
cause it touches a nerve with them... but that’s life.
There are certain practitioners that I like a lot, I their
way of doing things, not known to
the public... since they still teach in secret like in the
Asayama ichiden ryu: I was able to
meet the Sakai family and they have two students... I
really like their way of doing
things. I also like Kuroda Tetsuzan, what he says, what he
does, I know him since I
have met him several times, though I don’t know him
intimately. Then there is a Japa-
nese side that is a little tough for me which I don’t like
very much. Over the course of
studying Japan, we discover certain aspects which many
researchers know, no matter
what their discipline. In the domain of the martial arts it
becomes particularly difficult
when these researchers are rigid, which is often the case.
I suppose this is true for
Japanese society as a whole. Ceremony is something I had to
master down to the most
minute details... I learned how to do this thanks to
university which at times forced me to
see that some people are more interested to see that I am
able to present things the
way they like to do them in order to make them better
known. There you have it, you
meet all kinds! We meet people who are very interesting and
have a great deal of
knowledge but remain very closed in their heads and their
hearts which is really too
bad... but that is the life which they have chosen.
Kwoon:
Do you have anything to add? Or remove?
KZ: Thank you... Hello to all the people from Kwoon, it’s
been great... No matter what
your influences or tendencies... As far as I’m concerned,
ninjutsu, regardless of which
organization, I don’t care who trains with who. I think we
must, I will speak frankly and
directly, we must stop hiding our faces behind someone’s
name, organization or even a
screen, we have to open our eyes... I am not saying that
Hatsumi sensei is the best or
anything like that... We have to analyze facts and things
as they are at their source: The
master-disciple relationship is based on certain undeniable
factors, and it has been like
this ever since martial arts have existed. This means that
we should find documents that
prove someone to be fully licensed. Some like to practice
with Mr Tanemura or Mr. Ma-
naka, its fine with me, they choose in their ow wa. But
again just by looking who really
met and stay with Takamatsu sensei for more ong time and
until the end, it was only
Hatsumi sensei. Even the so call student of Takamatsu
sensei like Sato kinbei or Ueno
takashi who received scroll and soke license from Takamatsu
sensei were not at his fu-
neral. I mean if I received a scroll or even a menkyo from
a master like Takamatsu
sensei I ll show him my respect to his entire family the
day of his funeral. Its very impor-
tant to look those fact and by this we understand what type
of relation was between
Takamatsu sensei and student who called themselves their
successor, and also the
nature of the scroll they received from Takamatsu sensei.
Now the fact that some people would like to pass above that
or to sidestep it, that’s one
thing but we have to be able to recognize it. When we make
a mistake, we do it and we
admit it. If we follow a teacher instead of a style...
that’s fine! We have to learn to accept
them as they are. If I like someone because of their way of
doing things, it’s because of
their way of doings that I like them; that doesn’t mean
that it applies to the style... So if i
have something to say to everybody on Kwoon it’s that it is
really a great thing to create
a space for open discussion and exchange, if it really
leads to exchange! But never for-
get, that art martial is about action more than
argumentation, the real argumentation is
found through the action in martial arts.
I’m sorry that I do not have the time to write nor to
participate in the discussion and ar-
gumentation that so many enjoy. Everyone uses time to the
best of their abilities; either
way this was a good thing.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak in your
column and I hope that nothing
I have proposed will insult anybody’s sensibilities. It is
not my intention to insult anyone.
If I have touched anyone they can always contact me and I
could explain myself in per-
son since it is always difficult to understand a person
through their writing alone. There
is nothing better than meeting directly, to go straight to
the source, to be sure... and
even then.
This is martial arts: direct confrontation, immediate
reality, not just reading...
Kwoon:
Thank you very much
Kacem!
KZ: It’s I who thank you.
Kacem
Zoughari